#22 Breaking Boundaries in Fintech & Partner Marketing | with Alex Short

00:00:00: Welcome to the Partner Marketing Podcast.

00:00:11: Hello everybody and welcome back to the Partner Marketing Podcast.

00:00:15: My guest today is Alex Short, founder and CEO of PerformID.

00:00:19: Alex has been pioneering the intersection of fintech and partner marketing with a fresh approach to loyalty through card linked offers, helping brands connecting directly with consumers through real time card based rewards.

00:00:33: Alex, welcome.

00:00:34: It's great to have you on the show today.

00:00:36: Thank you for coming.

00:00:37: Thank you, Matthias.

00:00:39: It's really nice to be on the show.

00:00:41: I really appreciate it.

00:00:42: It's the first time I have a podcast with somebody from Australia, so that is super exciting for me to learn a little bit more about what the market, what the industry is down there.

00:00:54: Do you maybe want to start introducing yourself a little bit?

00:00:57: Yes, certainly, yes.

00:01:00: You might guess by the accent, even though I'm in Australia, that I'm actually Irish.

00:01:05: I arrived in Australia probably about twelve years by way of South Korea, so I was living over there before I moved in here.

00:01:14: And for any of you who've been to Australia, I'm sure you can agree that it's just a slice of paradise.

00:01:20: I know it's super far away, but the country down here is amazing.

00:01:24: We've always got good weather, especially being Irish.

00:01:26: I think we thoroughly enjoy living down under.

00:01:30: So yeah, I came down here and I took up a job in affiliate marketing with Rakuten and they moved over from the US.

00:01:40: and so I was early days sort of ten years ago when they first launched here and I was a big part of the publisher development sector here for them.

00:01:51: And since then, obviously a lot has changed.

00:01:54: And through my time in working on the publisher side and publisher development, a few of the clients that I worked with were banks.

00:02:02: And that's kind of how I ended up in moving in towards the sort of fintech sector.

00:02:07: But affiliate has always been a passion of mine since I discovered it, I guess.

00:02:12: And it's just such a nice environment where sort of everybody wins, right?

00:02:17: I've been in other industries where people don't win and it's an unhappy place to be in.

00:02:22: But at the end of the day, through affiliates, it's just win-win for everybody.

00:02:26: So yeah, I'm delighted to be in Australia, delighted to be an affiliate all around.

00:02:31: It's pretty good.

00:02:33: All right.

00:02:34: Can I ask you a few questions about the beginning?

00:02:36: Because I know so many people who would love to be in Australia, have tried in the past through different ways, or did some of the work and travel visa stuff.

00:02:47: So did you have any affiliate experience when you came to Australia already from Europe?

00:02:53: No, actually, I was totally green.

00:02:55: And so I moved from Ireland in the... I moved to Korea to be a teacher because Ireland back then was sort of through the GFC.

00:03:09: And so Ireland was not a great place to be working or finishing up at university.

00:03:13: And so I was a school teacher over in Korea.

00:03:16: And I don't think teaching is particularly my calling, but it was really interesting culturally to experience that.

00:03:22: And then coming down to Australia.

00:03:24: Teaching English,

00:03:25: I guess.

00:03:26: Exactly.

00:03:26: Yes.

00:03:27: Yeah.

00:03:28: And then when I moved down to Australia, I got a job in a sort of a WeWork, like a service office space.

00:03:34: And one of the clients that I had was Rakuten at the time.

00:03:38: And they started out in the office with two people, and then it grew to six and eight and ten, and then they were moving out.

00:03:45: And at that point, I had sort of just been sponsored, and the team was so much fun.

00:03:51: And I was like, look, I don't know what it is that you guys do, but now that you're moving out, would you please take me with you?

00:03:56: And they were like, absolutely sure.

00:03:59: Yeah, anyone can do affiliate as long as you're a little bit passionate and interpersonal.

00:04:03: So they took me under their wing and I ended up starting from the bottom in affiliate there.

00:04:09: But yeah, I loved it, loved marketing.

00:04:12: That's a brilliant story.

00:04:13: That's a brilliant story.

00:04:14: You said affiliate marketing is a win-win.

00:04:18: They told you like everybody can do it as long as it's interpersonal.

00:04:22: Is that kind of like besides the win-win, the stuff that you like most that our industry is so interconnected with brands on the one hand, partners on the other hand, networks in the middle.

00:04:34: And you have so many people that you always speak to and engage with.

00:04:40: I really enjoy the element of the partnerships and sort of strategic input.

00:04:45: So, you know, global brands, they don't necessarily know how to go global.

00:04:50: And they often rely on affiliates to help them break into new markets.

00:04:55: And I think maybe, you know, being Irish, having lived in Asia and then moved down here.

00:05:01: and i had exposure to a lot of different types of markets and a lot of the clients that we had on our network at the time were big global sort of u.s.

00:05:08: and centric merchants like macy slacks the sax blooming girls and and it was sort of you know consulting them and.

00:05:16: Even even from a very fresh young age, you know starting green in the industry at that they were still looking towards your cultural knowledge and which I kind of came in already with and which was great.

00:05:25: and so it was helping these global brands sort of expand into Asia particularly.

00:05:32: And so it all kind of came full circle.

00:05:34: My time in Korea, I never thought I'd use again.

00:05:36: And then I came down here and started working with banks back in Korea and selling them US brands by way of Australia.

00:05:43: And so, yeah, the Australian market wasn't a center focus for me.

00:05:47: And then I ended up sort of looking after the Singapore team in Rakuten for a few years, sort of flying back and forth from there.

00:05:55: It's interesting how the industry has just sort of exploded across APAC in the past.

00:06:00: I'd say decade.

00:06:01: Yes, very much so, very much so.

00:06:03: And this experience together with your experience in finance and banking that brought you to the idea to launch and found to form ID, can you describe a little bit how that process went?

00:06:17: Sure, yes.

00:06:18: So working in the affiliate side and here, when I was focusing on pushing American brands into Korea, China, Japan.

00:06:29: One of the key players that we recruited as a publisher was American Express Korea.

00:06:36: So I think they saw the names that we had on our network and they said, look, we love the idea of working with these brands, but we just can't work on the last click.

00:06:47: I think banking Banking has always struggled to be able to utilize a last-click attribution because it needs to be first-party tracking.

00:06:56: It needs to be tracking that the banks own and have a hundred percent certainty on.

00:07:01: And so through the period of working with them, consulting, AmEx Korea, I said, look, if you guys want to get serious about going much larger with this, you need to have a platform like this, a cashback site that then plugs in and utilizes elements of your card linking in the back end.

00:07:19: But for merchants, they really need to work on that last click.

00:07:22: And the way that e-commerce is moving and everything needs to be digitally attributed.

00:07:27: So it was through that consulting them that then they said, okay, well, Are you proposing that you're going to build it?

00:07:33: I was like, well, I wasn't.

00:07:35: But now that you seem interested in it, I was like, would you buy it if I built it?

00:07:39: And they were like, yes.

00:07:40: So then it was a very, I suppose, fortunate turn of fate that I went away and got some funding, built the initial platform.

00:07:50: And since then, it's just sort of taken off from there.

00:07:53: We now have seven banks in Korea through Amix Live on the on the miamixshopping.com platform.

00:08:00: And then similarly, Visa came out of the woodwork in Korea and said, hey, what you're doing with them, we want to do the same thing.

00:08:05: So now we've also launched with Visa.

00:08:07: So we've got, I suppose, two very strong cashback sites that are sort of bridging and using the best of both attribution sets in the Korean market currently live.

00:08:18: So from there, we're using that as our launch pad to go into markets elsewhere with our global clients.

00:08:25: Can you share a few more details about this initial time?

00:08:29: in the beginning when you like we're speaking with the bank and they said okay yeah I would take your offer if you build it but then still obviously you need to get the funding.

00:08:39: you have this idea but I always like when speaking with founders or having own ideas actually I think there is a big.

00:08:48: A big jump to do between the idea and then actually realizing it like you need to have like some tech capabilities, you need to funding, you need some time, you need to find the right people.

00:08:57: Can you describe a little bit about this stage where you were?

00:09:02: Yeah, for sure.

00:09:04: I think that I was also very fortunate that at the time that that stage came about and it was the very start of COVID.

00:09:12: And everything was going online.

00:09:14: And so the speed of, I suppose, how quickly everything wanted to be taken up by the banks was accelerated significantly, especially because Koreans were no longer traveling overseas.

00:09:26: So in that period, I think we signed the agreement pretty quickly, knowing that e-commerce was going to be very important for the next five years at least.

00:09:35: And in that, I searched around for... So you

00:09:38: saw that.

00:09:41: Already

00:09:42: in the beginning of COVID.

00:09:44: It was just at the turn of, it was like, twenty twenty when we signed the agreement.

00:09:48: So we had already starting to see borders closing and things like that.

00:09:52: And they could see e-commerce was rising.

00:09:54: It was a fortuitous time, I guess, that it all kind of worked out.

00:10:00: In that period, I spoke to a few cashback players to say, you know, I have no development experience.

00:10:05: I've got partnership experience, but I need a partner to come in and help me build this thing, this idea.

00:10:11: And unfortunately, well, unfortunately at the time, I think everyone else was focusing on, I suppose, buttoning up their shirt, coming into the same thing with COVID.

00:10:22: And so I went away and I spoke to a development team and sort of outsourced it using pretty much all of my life savings.

00:10:30: And so I took the chance, but I took the chance knowing that I'd already signed the agreement and that it was going to come back to me pretty quickly.

00:10:37: So over that period, I worked with a team here of a bed of dozen people to get it up and running pretty quickly.

00:10:44: And then once it was built, they moved off the project and then we slowly hired in-house.

00:10:50: The banks move incredibly slowly until the point that they signed an agreement with you and then it needs to be done yesterday.

00:10:56: So all the pressure then flows on to especially a startup like ours.

00:11:00: But we were so fortunate to have had the timing, the backing of the banks and Amex and also then my personal gamble with my own savings I knew would be replenished pretty quickly.

00:11:13: So everything just aligned so well.

00:11:17: Certainly not a normal startup story.

00:11:19: I know that.

00:11:20: No, but it's very courageous, right?

00:11:22: I think.

00:11:25: Well, yes and no, because it was also the safest gamble.

00:11:31: Yeah,

00:11:33: very good.

00:11:34: Very exciting.

00:11:36: Can you describe a bit now how does it work exactly, perform ID?

00:11:40: Like from your perspective, maybe as a founder and company owner, businessman, but as well for brands and consumers as well.

00:11:50: Yes, absolutely.

00:11:52: So I think, as I kind of mentioned, It's a bit of a win-win for everyone, so I can talk about the wins of how each of these segments wins.

00:12:00: But starting out, I think I like to always put my hat on from the customer's perspective.

00:12:04: So as a consumer, you go onto the site, and we build these white label platforms.

00:12:10: And so you'll go onto my AmicShopping.com, and it looks and feels like an American Express website, completely branded with theirs, but it's all hosted by PerformID.

00:12:19: And then just like a cashback site, you'll sign up, you'll link your Amex card, which I suppose is a unique step, and then you click through to any of the participating retailers.

00:12:29: And what makes our site a little bit different to a cashback site is that because the card holder is a credit card holder, we're enabled through Amex to do a sort of push-pull of a credit.

00:12:43: So unlike in a normal cashback site where you have to wait sixty to ninety days to get your cashback, And through us, we initiate the cash back straight down to the card within seven days.

00:12:54: So customers have this, I suppose, constant fuel of cash back coming in.

00:12:57: There's no waiting periods for them that are excessive.

00:13:00: And then if they return anything through the affiliate APIs, if anything's reported to us as a cancellation or reversal or partial return, we then initiate the correction onto their credit card.

00:13:14: So you pay out first and you correct later.

00:13:17: That's correct.

00:13:18: So that's the sort of advantage to the customers at some point.

00:13:22: I think from the merchants and they have this brand alignment with banks and with Amex on a last click.

00:13:31: So traditionally through CLO offers, like if you were to set up just a standard CLO offer with a bank, That usually uses the banking's tracking and technology, and that technology doesn't feed into digital attribution.

00:13:45: So therefore, all the points that trade doubler, for example, implements on the merchants' tagging or website that might allow net newer existing customer, or perhaps maybe skews, different skews at different commission rates, or any other digital attribute around an in-app purchase versus a website purchase.

00:14:07: All of those types of things can be included in the tracking that we now use because we're using the last click versus a banking CLO tracking, which is prohibitive in that sense and there's a few loopholes in the CLO and tracking in today's attributable world.

00:14:27: Then moving on, I guess, from the merchant point to the bank's point, they're getting rather than having months signing agreements and sourcing all of these, and pieces of information from the merchant to set up a single campaign.

00:14:40: They're getting an on-flowing go of hundreds of merchants adopting into this almost like the website already has three hundred plus offers on there.

00:14:49: So for a third party to do that and a third party to manage all of the customer service as well makes life so easy for the banks.

00:14:56: And then the last people to win are us, of course, because we make a little bit of a clip of the ticket, which is fantastic from our perspective.

00:15:04: Very good.

00:15:05: Very good.

00:15:06: For American Express, so for the bank, that's the loyalty program.

00:15:10: So they want to link their customers to themselves, increasing the volume of their transactions.

00:15:16: Basically, that's their win.

00:15:19: While for the consumers, obviously, the cashback.

00:15:22: That's correct.

00:15:23: I think I should call out the Korean market for AmEx is very different than it would be in say Germany or the UK because I believe in Germany AmEx is a bank as well as a card network so they can issue you an American Express direct branded product.

00:15:41: In Korea, they can't do that because the Korean government, similar to the Chinese government in India as well, they work in a different way in those markets whereby overseas companies are not allowed to issue lines of credit to their consumers.

00:15:55: So you have to issue your co-branded Amix card with a local bank.

00:15:59: And so, for example, in Korea, we have these, you know, seven banks like Hyundai Card, Samsung Card.

00:16:04: All of these banks are issuing the card with an American Express logo on it.

00:16:09: But it's the issuers themselves own the end customer, not American Express.

00:16:14: I see.

00:16:15: So American Express was the first one you've rid with other banks now as well?

00:16:18: Well, CardProvider's.

00:16:20: Yeah, so... We now have seven of the national banks, AmEx's total portfolio in that market.

00:16:27: With Visa, we have a standalone website just for Shinhan Card.

00:16:30: And Shinhan Card is the largest national provider.

00:16:33: So, similar size, I guess, in terms of the user bases.

00:16:39: You know, Visa is obviously a much larger card network than American Express.

00:16:43: But we have more of those local banks through AmEx currently.

00:16:46: But it's creating this amazing case study of how to use affiliates and banking together.

00:16:51: And then AmEx and Visa are both looking at other markets to say, how do we replicate the success of this elsewhere?

00:16:58: When you have these partnerships with these seven banks, are they all in Korea now?

00:17:03: Yes.

00:17:04: That's correct.

00:17:05: Yeah.

00:17:05: So you work exclusively in Korea, in the Korean market at the moment.

00:17:11: That's correct.

00:17:12: Yes.

00:17:12: We did launch American Express Australia for a while.

00:17:16: We trial that.

00:17:17: And now for a few other reasons, you know, American Express had a reinvestment in their local offers here.

00:17:23: And so that one changed.

00:17:25: And our products have sort of been earmarked for markets that don't have direct to consumer lending.

00:17:32: So those markets would look like perhaps maybe the Brazilian market, the Chinese markets and Taiwan and so forth.

00:17:39: What would be the entry for you in order to go into other markets as well?

00:17:45: So I think it really comes down, particularly when we have a look at Visa and Visa operates the same way globally.

00:17:53: So if we take them as like an easier example and through Visa, they work only through issuers.

00:17:58: So that would be, you know, your local German bank on your end with a Visa card co-branded or say a wise Visa card or Revolute Visa.

00:18:07: And so all of these issuers, I think it's down to them to decide whether or not they want to add this added service that PerformID provides via the Visa network.

00:18:18: So a lot of these banks have this relationship with Visa to say, you know, we'll issue some more of your cards, but you guys have to give us some more bells and whistles, you know, what makes you better than MasterCard?

00:18:30: And through that, we kind of sit on a shelf as like a product of value added service for them to say, you know, I would issue more Visa cards if we knew that we were getting this loyalty platform thrown in.

00:18:42: How do you operate then?

00:18:44: Like you are based in Sydney in Australia.

00:18:47: How do you operate then in Korea?

00:18:50: You do everything remotely or you have people there in Korea itself?

00:18:55: Yeah, good question.

00:18:56: So there's actually ten of us on the PerformID team.

00:19:00: Five of us are based in Australia and three of the team are based over in Seoul.

00:19:07: in South Korea.

00:19:08: And the team there, I've been working with them for years.

00:19:13: A lot of the people that are now within PerformID are actually X Rakuten or X Shopback as well, because obviously Rakuten and Shopback had a co-investment.

00:19:24: So it's really great.

00:19:26: There's three people on the ground in Korea that I really, really trust.

00:19:30: And when you're a small team like this and you get to know each other, on a friendly level as well, that you have that complete trust in one another.

00:19:39: And it really works out as well that Sydney and Korea only have a one-hour time difference.

00:19:44: So it's not quite as painful as perhaps maybe if we were to do, you know, Visa Germany.

00:19:50: It might be a few late calls like this one.

00:19:55: Do you have any plans to go into other markets now as well to expand beyond Korea?

00:20:00: Yes, we do.

00:20:01: I think it's difficult at this stage to disclose exactly which ones, obviously, through the secrecy of the clients.

00:20:08: But we are super excited about what the future holds.

00:20:12: I think the product we've developed has sort of created this case study that allows it to be replicated super, super quickly.

00:20:20: And we know that as a startup, what's so important is your moat, right?

00:20:24: You know, the barrier to entry that keeps you safe as a new start-up.

00:20:28: And I think that getting as far as we have with these international card companies means that we've already got it, we've been onboarded, we're trusted, we're a partner that they can take and replicate.

00:20:39: So, and we're very excited about the next sort of twelve months.

00:20:43: And I hope that I get to talk to you again in maybe two or three years time to say, you know, we're talking about new markets other than just Korea.

00:20:52: There is a few card linking offers providers in Europe, obviously.

00:20:59: How is it done in the APAC Asia Pacific region?

00:21:04: I guess there is maybe more room for development than as well, right?

00:21:09: Yeah, there certainly are quite a few card linking providers even here in APAC.

00:21:14: But I think what we don't really define our product as card linked offers, we define it as ACLO, so affiliate led card linked offers.

00:21:24: And so the card linked offer segment, it's great.

00:21:28: It's amazing if you're a merchant and you want to do offline and you want to drive people in store.

00:21:33: But if you're sitting in a digital marketers chair, running an affiliate program, you need it to run on that last click.

00:21:42: And I think that's the key difference that PerformID holds is we're doing things the way that merchants need it to be done.

00:21:49: And we're doing it because At the end of the day, the merchants pay the bills for everything that keeps the lights on within the affiliate industry.

00:21:55: And so if we could fix that problem and make it work for them, then we can make it work for everyone to end the chain.

00:22:02: Can you share a few examples of brands that you are working with, just like to picture a little bit how that works?

00:22:12: Certainly, yes.

00:22:12: So some really good examples of partners who have loved the ACLO tracking.

00:22:19: And if we take a partner like, let's say Apple, right?

00:22:22: So Apple come out twice a year with new products.

00:22:26: And I think Apple really struggled to use traditional card linked offers because it would have to commission everything at the same rate, right?

00:22:34: They might have to commission five percent across everything at Apple.

00:22:37: And Apple's never, they never want to pay for commissioning on or discounting of their brand new lines, right?

00:22:44: Their new iPhone, why would they discount that if everybody's going to buy that at full price?

00:22:49: So I think for them to have a look at, well, if we use last click attribution through perform ID, we're able to then say, we're not going to commission on the brand new iPhone, iPhone XI or whatever comes out next.

00:23:01: But we will commission on older models and we'll commission on other things like accessories and whatnot.

00:23:08: So Apple would be a good example of somebody who on a skew level needs to work on digital attribution rather than card linking.

00:23:16: Another example might be say, for example, a local pharmacy here in Australia, and it's not legal to commission or discount pharmaceutical goods, and particularly prescription.

00:23:28: But the pharmacy stocks so many other different things, and so that skew level importance where they can exclude pharmaceutical goods out of commissioning is also super important.

00:23:38: Very interesting.

00:23:39: Very good.

00:23:39: That gives a very good picture.

00:23:41: Going back to affiliate marketing itself, you have a quite good view on the different markets across Asia, I guess.

00:23:50: How would you describe the landscape to be in affiliate and partner marketing in markets like, for example, Korea compared to Australia?

00:24:00: How is the status?

00:24:01: How is affiliate marketing working in these countries?

00:24:04: I found it very interesting when I was on the publisher side and I was helping, I suppose, consult publishers and you had all of these people who had their own startups across Asia and they were showing you all of the cool things that they were doing in order to drive sales.

00:24:19: And I think what really fascinated me about APAC is that Global brands were in demand here for years before they even shipped here, or before they ever navigated coming here directly.

00:24:32: And so Korean consumers, Korea's the world's highest per capita luxury goods importer.

00:24:40: And the Koreans, they were able to shop on US websites, on European websites, and they would do dropshipping.

00:24:48: So if you're familiar with freight forwarding, And they would work with a Korean freight forwarder who perhaps maybe has a warehouse set up in maybe Hamburg.

00:24:58: And they would do all their shopping for like my Teresa luxury merchant in Germany.

00:25:04: And they would get everything shipped there because the price of the, let's say they were buying a handbag, the handbag was cheaper in Euro than it was in Korean one.

00:25:14: And it perhaps maybe avoided taxes and charges.

00:25:16: So they would get it.

00:25:17: sent for free delivery to a warehouse in Hamburg, and then that warehouse would then forward it on at a nominal fee.

00:25:26: So the Korean, not just Korean, but also Chinese in particular as well, the landscape out here.

00:25:33: where the customer journeys are going and how they need to compare not just prices of items, but they also compare.

00:25:40: free delivery to Germany, free delivery to France, and then, you know, all these different currencies.

00:25:45: There's just so many layers of how customers are looking to improve their discounts and also, you know, receive goods that they might be otherwise sort of coveted or hard to get if they weren't to sort of go around the Buschabedit.

00:26:00: Australians are not exactly the same as that.

00:26:02: We do shop overseas a lot.

00:26:04: But I think the Australian market wouldn't really engage.

00:26:08: I think there's a lot of homegrown domestic brands here and we're not a big luxury market either.

00:26:13: So each market is super different with a different personality.

00:26:16: How is it in the structure of the market itself?

00:26:19: Because Asian markets, so not Australia, but rather Southeast Asia, they're obviously all mobile first countries.

00:26:29: Right and then there is a lot of CPC offers a lot of CPC traffic.

00:26:35: has that changed now recently as well to accommodate a little bit more the affiliate model as well.

00:26:41: And then how?

00:26:42: how is that working in all these different countries?

00:26:44: because you obviously have different legislation.

00:26:46: you have different currencies tax for example right.

00:26:50: so I could imagine it's.

00:26:52: relatively complicated to have a offer across so many different countries with so many different setups?

00:26:59: Yeah, I remember the days of CPC being larger than perhaps maybe as I know them now.

00:27:06: I've been out of being a publisher development side for about five years, so maybe that's increased.

00:27:13: But I think international merchants were demanding the CPA route, right?

00:27:16: The making sure a sale was made and then giving a percentage of that rather than on a CPC basis.

00:27:23: I'll give you an interesting story though.

00:27:25: When I first started out at Rakuten, I was looking into Korean publishers and those could be, you know, small little micro bloggers in Korea.

00:27:35: But because Korea and China both used their own search engines, And a lot of these international brands had no search campaigns within those, within those search engines at all being Naver or Baidu.

00:27:49: And these sort of micro influencers were churning out tens of thousands of dollars per month in terms of commissions because they were creating a tiny little micro blog using things like Macy Saxon Bloomingdale's in the keywords and they were ranking on page number one.

00:28:04: So Those days have definitely gone.

00:28:06: I think that's sort of, you know, LTK or some of these other influencer networks have sort of come in and helped sort of manifest some of that and scoop up some of that.

00:28:16: But yeah, we had some, you know, micro bloggers that were just making like a million plus a year.

00:28:23: It was crazy.

00:28:24: And so yeah, super interesting, unique landscapes.

00:28:28: Each country has a different way in which it operates.

00:28:33: And I think once you sort of grease the palms of the locals there who know how to sell things to their own people better than we can, that's what makes sort of affiliate super interesting in globalizing a brand.

00:28:47: And you pick up all of these local advocates that you didn't realize that you had.

00:28:51: What would you say is the main trends that now in partner marketing or the loyalty industry linked to that?

00:28:57: What do you see?

00:29:00: So within affiliate, I think loyalty has continued to grow and taking up a larger set of the pie.

00:29:09: I think in the early days as well, there was a sort of a fear of the cashback model.

00:29:14: I think, you know, originally, affiliate had been trained up to use for the most simple form, which is like an influencer posting a link, shares some information and introduces a brand, my brand to that bear customer base.

00:29:28: but then all of these other business models that have come in, browser extensions, apps, loyalty programs.

00:29:34: So the original use case for Affiliate has totally changed.

00:29:39: I think maybe the loyalty players, all I hate to say it because we are one of those, but it scoops up the rest of the network to, I suppose, detract from content.

00:29:54: So there are quite a few content networks out there and players and I know that they're sort of doubling in that CPC space because that's what kind of keeps the environment fair and because loyalty partners can't work on anything but a last click.

00:30:08: and then these you know.

00:30:11: a content networks need to work on a first click.

00:30:14: So I think it's kind of the struggle of an affiliate manager now to find a nice balance between both to keep the top end of the funnel moving with new content players, but then also to keep your large revenue drivers, particularly around sales periods, the loyalty players, and keeping them working on a CPA.

00:30:32: There is a lot of topics around regulation, legislation, tracking, and topics like that.

00:30:39: Is that similar in the Asia Pacific region as well?

00:30:43: Very much so.

00:30:44: We obviously didn't go through the same GDPR and elements as Europe.

00:30:51: That was the struggle.

00:30:52: I think even though we weren't based in Europe, I think everybody here was afraid of it.

00:30:56: It definitely complicated things, but consumer law is always changing.

00:31:00: And there's so many markets across APAC that I don't think any of it's yet unified.

00:31:06: I don't think that we've had anything in the way of something similar to GDPR.

00:31:11: But certainly the networks are taking a good stance on cleaning up.

00:31:16: I suppose unwanted traffic or perhaps maybe less desirable traffic.

00:31:23: I think.

00:31:23: the way that AI is being implemented by a lot of the affiliate networks now is really sort of cleaning things up at a rapid pace.

00:31:30: So I'm hoping that we don't ever need to go down the road of needing to use a sort of a GDPR blanket pop up across every website in APAC.

00:31:41: But yeah, I think that we just need to make sure that the traffic that comes in through affiliates and through referrals just remains as clean and as good as possible to try and avoid any of that kind of additional red tape.

00:31:51: So I suppose in terms of Partner marketing legislation, I think one of the things that I've been very impressed at lately is how the networks have taken a very forward stance in cleaning up the traffic that's coming through.

00:32:03: So there's a few of the major networks who have started to really not just clean up on what's coming in through the publisher side, but also making sure that the rules and standards on the merchant side and with tracking is a lot cleaner.

00:32:18: So obviously working with banks, we need that to be as as clear as possible.

00:32:23: We fall under a very strict regulation with the Korean banks as they can end up being taken to the regulator if something goes wrong with affiliate.

00:32:32: And as we know, affiliate is good most of the time, but it does have times where it can drop off.

00:32:38: So we are subject to, I suppose, being held on a much higher standard.

00:32:43: from the regulator's perspective.

00:32:45: But I think we've seen a continuous improvement from the networks in implementing things like AI tools and whatnot to try and make sure the tracking is a much more spot on than it has been historically.

00:32:57: When you

00:32:57: speak

00:32:57: about AI, how will that affect you?

00:33:00: What is your thoughts about that?

00:33:01: Will that help you rather?

00:33:03: Is it a threat?

00:33:04: I think everyone has a little bit of fear in the publishing industry about what's going to happen.

00:33:11: A huge part of all of our traffic comes from search.

00:33:16: And as we know what Google Gemini is doing is changing how people search, changing people's discovery of brands.

00:33:25: I think we're just trying to make sure that we're AI adjacent.

00:33:30: I don't want to say that we're capable of implementing AI across the board, particularly with the red tape that we're under by having banking clients on there.

00:33:39: Things are always a bit slower.

00:33:42: What I think I will do really well for us is you know we considered building a skew level shopping comparison engine and as a lot of you know publishers already do but now I can do that and simplify things like data feeds and shopping experiences so we're keeping our ear close to the ground in terms of what other.

00:34:00: publishers globally are doing with AI and how then can we trickle down effect that?

00:34:05: And we're some of those great ideas to propose those to our banking partners to see if, you know, do they have appetite to allow us to explore new tools and features for our customers?

00:34:15: And in the beginning now, I could think it's rather an accelerator, right?

00:34:19: Because it obviously allows you to produce more content, more offers, stuff like that.

00:34:25: But then where is the traffic coming from, right?

00:34:27: That's a big question in the future.

00:34:30: Yes, but luckily, in the future, the way I see things going is that everybody has a very small set of apps on your phone.

00:34:41: But the one or two apps that you use very regularly are your banking app.

00:34:45: So even though if we might bypass Google or we might bypass Naver or Baidu or any of these search engines, at least as a banking consumer customer, you go in there into your banking app probably on a daily basis.

00:35:00: And in there, if there's an offers tab in there, you engage with that.

00:35:03: And so I think that as we sort of trickle down and whittle down what's in our phones and what we're engaging with on a regular basis, banking is just going to continue to be those super apps.

00:35:14: They're going to have a Swiss Army knife set of different features and things in there.

00:35:18: And if you're familiar in Europe, you know, Revolute has its own cashback section.

00:35:22: I think it's only a matter of time when people likewise and other banks try and implement some other similar tools.

00:35:29: It's so complimentary to have an offers section.

00:35:33: And I think merchants love that, that they can cut away the search element of engaging with a publisher by going straight into the app environment.

00:35:42: Now you said the next month's ad perform ID will be very exciting.

00:35:47: Can you share a little bit more at least about your future plans on what you have in mind?

00:35:52: Sure, yes.

00:35:53: So I think what we're preparing for is these further market expansions.

00:36:00: And in order to do that, we're actively looking for further investment.

00:36:04: So next month, I'm going over to Korea to a big VC fair to sort of take to the stage and explain about who perform IDR.

00:36:17: I think going to do that in front of Korean investors is very relevant for us because we've become that loyalty brand that's well recognized with a lot of the local banks.

00:36:26: So I think our best bet is to go and searching for some investment from Korean VCs and then working together with them to allow us as an international team to take the product out of Korea and into new markets together.

00:36:39: So funding first and then expansion second.

00:36:43: But it certainly will be a few sleepless nights on the cards.

00:36:46: But that's exciting times, right?

00:36:48: Very much so.

00:36:49: I think a startup couldn't ask for anything more.

00:36:53: You want to get that hockey stick of growth.

00:36:55: We've proven our point here and I think we're trying to get out there and talk to more brands, go to a lot of European and US events and more global affiliate events to talk to new partners and hopefully meet new banks, people we can get on board with.

00:37:13: Good.

00:37:14: Thank you so much for sharing your story, Alex.

00:37:17: Thank you, Matthias.

00:37:18: Now at the end, just like

00:37:19: as a wrap up,

00:37:20: I have three questions that are asked all my guests, if you wouldn't mind.

00:37:24: That's a little bit more personal.

00:37:26: I hope it's OK.

00:37:29: If you would share with us some kind of inspiration, what is the best book you've read?

00:37:35: Certainly.

00:37:36: So I did read this question from your earlier email, and I think To be honest, I don't read very often.

00:37:45: I think I lead a busy life where if I am reading something, it's usually articles about affiliate or how to improve, you know, product.

00:37:52: So I do.

00:37:56: I will admit though, I do listen to a lot of podcasts.

00:37:58: So if I could, you know.

00:38:00: phrase it into my favorite podcast and obviously excluding your podcast because that would be unfair to include it.

00:38:08: There is one that I love and it's called The Real Dictators.

00:38:12: And I don't know why it's so comforting on my commute to listen about, you know, the worst things that will happen to people around the world.

00:38:19: And the Real Dictators podcast, I think why I find it so interesting is that they focus on a different dictator for sort of each episode and their real early life.

00:38:29: And I think it's kind of for the same reason that I got into marketing to begin with is that I'm so interested in people's psyche of what drives people to do things and become who they are and what causes behavior patterns to shift.

00:38:43: And if you haven't listened to that podcast, you should have have a listen.

00:38:47: It's so good.

00:38:48: You know, they focus on some of these crazy outlandish global dictators from history.

00:38:52: And it's just so interesting to combine that with sort of behavioral science.

00:38:56: That's interesting and that's a regular one that they published that regularly.

00:39:01: Yes.

00:39:01: Yeah, it's the Noiser podcast Yeah, and they focus on all of these different ones from different parts of the world and some well-known and so others not so well-known.

00:39:10: so and if you're a history buff and you're into a bit of you know Psychology I highly recommend it.

00:39:17: I will for sure have a look.

00:39:18: Yeah, that sounds very interesting.

00:39:20: I like this as well.

00:39:20: Like this, these kind of like combining different different insights with each other, what it's driving, other stuff, right?

00:39:29: I think that is very super interesting.

00:39:30: Yes.

00:39:31: And gives you a really good perspective on how things develop and play out then in the end.

00:39:36: Yes.

00:39:37: Yeah.

00:39:37: Despite how morbid it can be.

00:39:39: Yeah, it's great.

00:39:41: Is there a tool or app that you would recommend to us as well?

00:39:45: Something that you use

00:39:46: regularly.

00:39:47: I did think about this one as well, yes.

00:39:50: I have an app called Flighty.

00:39:52: I'm not sure if you've heard of Flighty, but it takes all of my travel plans because I'm obviously away for work quite a bit between here and Korea.

00:40:00: And every time I get a sort of new flight booking, it puts it in there and it It shows up all the information about where is your incoming plane?

00:40:07: Is it going to be on time?

00:40:08: Is it late?

00:40:09: And it just kind of allows you, it has this crystal ball of travel that allows you to see ahead of what the airlines are telling you.

00:40:17: And then it'll already tell you which baggage belt your bag is on before it's even on the screen.

00:40:21: So I love it.

00:40:22: Real-time updates on my travel.

00:40:24: It's called Fly-D.

00:40:25: Fly-T.

00:40:27: F-L-I-G-H-T-Y.

00:40:29: Yeah.

00:40:30: OK, that I need as well.

00:40:31: Yes, perfect.

00:40:32: Thank you so much.

00:40:34: And then last question about you.

00:40:37: If you wouldn't be in the partner marketing industry, if you would not have set up PerformID, what would you do?

00:40:45: What drives you if you were free?

00:40:48: So I think, you know, business is something that I'm passionate about.

00:40:53: And I think if I was to sell PerformID and I was to maybe have some spare cash to put into a new business idea, This is totally different, not partner marketing, but I would actually love to set up like a, I don't know if you've ever heard of a seaweed spa.

00:41:09: So in Ireland, we have a history and a culture of on the west coast of Ireland having a hot bath with seaweed.

00:41:18: And seaweed, again, it's totally far from affiliate marketing in every way, but it's super interesting in how it breaks down and forms this like kind of soup of cells.

00:41:27: And if you've ever had a seaweed bath, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about in terms of how good it makes you feel.

00:41:34: And I think there's nothing like that quite out here in Australia.

00:41:37: So I'm always a fan of doing something unique.

00:41:39: I think I would take that piece of Irish West Coast cultural history and bring it here to Australia and see if anybody would stick with it.

00:41:46: So I imagine on TripAdvisor, the seaweed spa of Sydney would be somewhere up there in a top thing to do.

00:41:55: Perfect.

00:41:55: Very nice.

00:41:56: Thank you so much for sharing all these insights and your story, Alex.

00:42:01: Thank you for being my guest.

00:42:02: Thank you so much.

00:42:03: Pleasure being here.

00:42:08: This podcast is produced by TLDR Studios.